[Fire Investigator]

2009 XTZ OWNERS,

I am investigating a 2009 XTZ 1000 fire loss. The fire originated at the rear of the vehicle in the area of the parking brake. The owner stated that when engaging the brake lever, the brake light will not illuminate until the brake lever has been pulled up 3 notches. The owners daughter was driving and may not have known that the brake was engaged. Any XTZ owners have similar issues with the parking brake?? How many notches "clicks" do you need to pull the brake lever until the indicator light comes on?? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Fire Investigator

 

[cnj]

I have NEVER seen a legitimate investigator enter a public forum asking for guidance. So I am calling you out. Are you a legitimate investigator (prove your credentials), or are you an ambulance chaser???

 

[Darryl89]

He has posted on another forum also, so he may be legitimately trying to find a history on XTZ's, but my past career experience and training as a fire/arson investigator tells me to look at several other things than what he's looking for...

 

[Fire Investigator]

Hey guys, I'm just looking for a little information on XTZ's. I am not an XTZ owner and have not investigated one before. I have tried to locate a local dealer, and all XTZ's have been sold. If anyone is from northern Indiana and owns one, please let me know.

cnj: To conduct a proper investigation one must gather information. Who better to gather information from than the people that own these machines. I don't feel that it is necessary to post my entire curriculum vitae on this forum. I will tell you that I work for a private forensic lab in Indiana. Also, why would an ambulance chaser want to know about a parking brake??

Darryl89: I assure you, I am considering ALL POTENTIAL ignition sources. The parking brake is one of those potentials.

 

[Johnny]

Mine is three clicks befor the light comes on but I dont think the brake drag is enough to cause a problem at three clicks I can still slide a feeler gauge in the pads ... I personaly dont think a warning sticker should have to be placed on the prowler that says please lower the parking brake handle all the way befor driving // maybe proper instruction on operating use befor letting people drive ........ but we have to blame somebody right ... and Arctic Cat has deep pockets ....... seems like my insurance company would have already bought me a new prowler and this would be over ...

the pictures I saw online of a prowler on fire with the rear brake rotor cut in half would have to be from a parking brake that was on more then three clicks ... alot more then three clicks ... just my 2 cents

 

[cnj]

Fire Investigator,
I appreciate you coming back and responding. Don't get me wrong, if you are legit, carry on. My hat is off to you. But, I have seen a number of times where, shortly after an incident like this, a "new member" shows up on a public message board and starts asking all kinds of questions in order to "establish" a possible condition which could be construed as being "unsafe". The next thing you know, every two-bit lawyer is trying to get their hands in a manufacturer's deep pockets. Look at the history of law suits filed (many times by negligent owners/operators) against Yamaha for mishaps that occured while someone was operating a Rhino.
To answer your question "why would an ambulance chaser want to know about a parking brake??", well, simply to try to establish the condition I mentioned above.
Again, if you are legit, more power to you, but you might get a bit more cooperation if you showed you are really not a lawyer with bad intentions.
My 2 cents.

 

[Fire Investigator]

I too appreciate the responses! Since there is concern of my legitimacy, I will tell you a little about myself. My name is Joe, and I work for Barker & Herbert Analytical Laboratories in New Haven, IN. I am an IAAI Certified Fire Investigator, NAFI Certified Fire & Explosion Investigator, and NAFI Certified Vehicle Fire Investigator. I have been a member of several fire departments and have been investigating for 5 years. I was hired by an insurance company to determine the origin and cause of the fire.

I am definitely not saying operator error is not an issue in this case.

Jonny's post is exactly the kind of information I am looking for. Since I can't get my hands on an exemplar machine, I figured I would try the next best thing and talk to the owners. Thanks for all your help.

 

[badseed]

I know of an xtz that caught on fire from a parking brake that was engaged but the light wasnt on. I saw it yesterday. You can see plain as day what the fire was from.

 

[Darryl89]

I know of an xtz that caught on fire from a parking brake that was engaged but the light wasnt on. I saw it yesterday. You can see plain as day what the fire was from.

Give us details, where, was it investigated...etc..

 

[badseed]

I dont think it was investigated. or at least they already knew what caused the fire. It was being used in a parade by some cops. after the parade they took it down a side road to see how fast it went. well the parking brake was still engaged like 1 or two clicks but the light was off. i would immagine that the caliper seals melted and started to leak brake fluid which caught on fire and the cops were stopped by a by stander who told them they were on fire. they flipped up the bed and put the fire out. Thats all i know! I swear man thats it. I have seen similar occurances of this but on actual vehicles where a brake caliper siezed and the customer just kept driving untill everything got so hot the caliper started leaking. They get so hot the ball joint boots melt, the wheel bearing grease gets so thin it leaks past the dust cap and burns. I thought that the fire investigator dude might want to know where to get picks of the damage thats why i posted about it, i wasnt trying to bet interogated. haha jk darryl. I called and got more info about it. ill talk to the guy to see if i can get pics of the parking brake caliper homicide if the csi agents will let me. ill get the pics if i can.

 

[Darryl89]

Badseed,
Funny how it melted ball joint boots and melted the gease out of the wheel bearings when the parking brake is on the driveshaft from the engine to the rear differential and nowhere near the wheels...

I've talked to owners that have accidently left the parking brake on while driving and none of them have ever had it come close to melting anything or catching fire...and none of them blame Arctic Cat for their failure to look at the light or check to see if the lever was all the way disengaged...

Come on folks, where is each of our's personal responsibility. Even if the light didn't work, any operator should know to check if the brake is released. Lights burn out too, which means you should be checking to see if the lever is released anyway.
I really don't see how a brake being on a click or two could generate enough heat to cause a fire like that...and I do have a college degree in fire science as I spent close to 20 years total in the fire service with several of those as a fire investigator. Plus that brake disk is cut in two with the edges beveled where it wore through. A brake pad wouldn't do that, the disk would've shredded long before that, allowing the disk and pad backing to be metal on metal and anyone that has worn brakes to that point knows that anyone within 50yards knows that it's metal on metal.

It might be that this occured just as was indicated by the owner, but there are also many other possibilities that could occur, let the investigator do his job. If you have an incident to report to him, make sure you have specifics and not just hearsay.

I for one am not ready to lay blame on Arctic Cat or the owner. I can only report what I see and can backup. I want to know the outcome and cause of this myself as I am an owner of an XTZ too as well as have sold many to customers (and I stand behind them, I take care of them, they are my business).

Yes, I saw the j/k, but I'm not sure what part you are joking about... but I'm not.

 

[badseed]

Darryl,

Before you call someone out and basically say they are a liar you should really learn to read and get your facts straight. With all your years of experience in the fire service one would think that someone with as much credibility as yourself would know to make sure they read and fully understand what people have written about. Or maybe you just cant read all that well either way, your stepping over the line by insinuating that I’m lying when in fact everything I have said is truthful. Read my last post again and you will find out that I said, "I have seen similar occurrences of this but on actual vehicles where a brake caliper seized and the customer just kept driving until everything got so hot the caliper started leaking. They get so hot the ball joint boots melt, the wheel bearing grease gets so thin it leaks past the dust cap and burns." I know where the parking brake is on the prowler and I never said that the ball joints and wheel bearings caught on fire on the prowler. Don’t you think that if all that caught on fire I would have listed the cv axle boot to have melted as well?

Second of all: When you say let the Fire Investigator do his job. He is doing exactly that he is doing his job. The investigator came to us looking for information and, I posted up about information I had. I was trying to help someone out, isn’t that what these forums are for? Instead you decide to criticize me for it. Apparently I didn’t leave enough detail in the first post for you but the second post I included all the details you asked for. I didn’t post to talk to you in the first place therefore I added some sarcasm…That would be the J/K part you saw. Which would be another thing the forums are for…FUN, not criticism from “Professionals” such as yourself. My first post was to simply let fire investigator know I knew where a prowler was that had a similar thing happen to it. Leaving the opportunity for him to post back and ask for more information, as to what information he would need I don’t know. That’s why I didn’t include many details. I have a phone number for him to call and I could get some pics probably by Friday if need be. I told everything I knew in the second post just for you, and you criticized me for it? Real professional Darryl.

The prowler that I posted about is at the dealer that I am going to buy my prowler from. From what I could tell being that the only place that was burnt was the parking brake parts it would be apparent that the source of the fire was the parking brake. I agree that this may or may not be operator error as well as a misadjusted parking brake. Either way I never said anything about blaming Arctic Cat. I gave all the information I had and if the investigator wanted I will give him the phone number to the dealer who has it and he can get picks so he can do his job. The fact that the prowler I saw that caught on fire and the one the fire investigator is investigating caught on fire in the same place may mean there is a problem that needs to be addressed before someone gets hurt. Therefore once again I say that I am trying to help someone who asked for help by providing information about a similar occurrence, not be called out in a forum because someone with a degree and 20 years experience has their panties in a knot and lashes out in an unprofessional manner. If you find it hard to believe that the parking brake being on one or two clicks could not cause enough drag that’s fine with me, but that is what the guy at the dealership said. If the light doesn’t come on until one or two clicks and the parking brake is adjusted to tightly this could very well happen especially if you don’t know how much power the prowler has. Furthermore, if you don’t think that a brake can cause a fire I’m here to tell you it can. Anyone who watches any kind of motorsport will tell you the same. Watch a race at night and you will see the brake disc glow red when the drivers step on the brakes. Or better yet watch some monster trucks. They have seized brakes more often. They even shoot sparks after a while. Sure the drive knows there is something wrong. Do they always stop? No way they are putting on a show! They burn it up and the crowd loves it! I guess they taught you in fire school that sparks and red hot metallic objects cant cause a fire though.
If you are so worried about Arctic Cat being blamed for this I would think you would be a bit more helpful rather than criticize me especially being that you sell them and believe in the product so much. Apparently you don’t have much experience with brakes and what they can do. I have seen several brake discs cut in two from being metal on metal. I have seen the brake backing fly out from under a super duty and puncture the fuel tank as well. People are not always very educated as to what outcome their actions may have. Some people just aren’t very bright. Who would stay in their car when the engine was on fire? One woman did because she thought there was a “firewall” in her car. Now that part of the car is called a bulkhead and the manufacturer lost a lot of money over it. Who would set the “emergency brake” during an evasive maneuver to avoid a wreck? One person did, now that brake is called the parking brake we are discussing. Who would you set a tray of hot coffee in their lap wearing sweat pants when they were in rush hour traffic to get to work? One woman did, Mc Donalds lost millions over that and had to turn the temps down on their coffee, plus the cups all say HOT on them, just because the warning is there doesn’t mean people are going to do anything about it. Hopefully some good will come from this and keep Arctic Cat from being sued over it. Maybe that’s why Fire investigator is gathering information, maybe fire investigator is actually a lawyer. Yamaha just lost a case because people are rolling their rhinos on their sides. Natural instinct is to put your foot out to stop it from rolling like a 4 wheeler. They end up with broken legs. Yamaha has to devise a way to keep people from doing this and pay lots of money. If people just drove rhinos like they are supposed to it probably wouldn’t roll. There are stickers all over these things and yet people still roll them, get hurt and sue the manufacturer because they are a victim of their own ignorance. Sure they got rich, the manufacturer raises the price for everyone else to compensate for the new parts they have to add as well as the lawsuit they have to pay. One person wins everyone else pays.

Third: You sure are hot headed about this whole thing and I think you need to chill out a bit. If you can’t handle my sarcasm with my playing around with you about being interrogated maybe you should forget about this post and read elsewhere. Someone with 20 years experience says a lot about you especially your age and how mature you should act as well as how professional you should be.

As for your hearsay, only the police officers who were riding the prowler and the guy who saw it on fire know the specifics about what happened and the story the cops gave was "all we were doing was riding down the road at about 25mph" yeah right. The guy who told the cops they were on fire said they were hauling ass on a back road. Now you tell me what’s hearsay. Who is lying and who is telling the truth? That’s why I didn’t put it into my post. Nobody can prove or disprove anything other than the prowler I am talking about had a fire that started from the parking brake. It isn’t really relevant in this post what anyone said happened. It is up to whoever is investigating the prowler to determine what the cause of the fire was and decide who is telling the truth not me. It was pretty obvious to me that since the only parts that were really burnt up on this prowler were the parking brake parts. I didn’t crawl under it nor did I stick my head around all over it. I was there to buy a prowler xtz and that is the only xtz they had. The only reason I looked at it was because I wanted to see the color.

By the way I think you are a very unprofessional, hot headed, and ignorant salesman and Who quits fire investigation after 20 years to be a salesman anyway? Do you try to strong arm them into buying from you? I would really hate to know I bought a wheeler from someone like you. I don’t know who you think you are but apparently you are too uptight to be on the same posts as me on this forum. I’m not joking about that. Do yourself a favor and take a chill pill or have a beer or two or get laid before you get really mad and do something drastic. I really don’t want to hear about a retired fire investigator turned 4 wheeler salesman who kills a bunch of people for not buying a 4wheeler from him on the news. I for one don’t want to be one of those people and won’t be one of those people. Hopefully you will find I have included as many details as possible for you to misconstrue in your head and get pissed about. Have a wonderful weekend Darryl.

Your Pal,
Badseed
you---> :box:<---ME!<---This is a joke Darryl. I want to make sure you understand what part im j/k about this time.

 

[Darryl89]

Badseed.
the part I was "calling you out on" as you put, was about the brake getting so hot it melted the grease out of the wheel bearing and melted the boot on the ball joint. The point of this investigation is the parking brake, which IS NOT located at the wheel on the XTZ, it is located on the driveshaft coming from the clutch/drive system to the rear differential. Yes, I know you said you have heard of this occurring on other vehicles, but others are not set up as an XTZ (parking brake layout) and are quite heavier than Prowlers.
I can see your point of the brake getting so hot that it melted the caliper piston boots and allowed the fluid to leak out, but the brake would have to be more than just 2 or 3 clicks up to cause that much heat. I don't know about yours, but on all the XTZs I've checked and been around, at 3 clicks up on the lever, you can still reach down and wiggle the caliper. You couldn't do that if the brake was engaged.

As for the story about it happening to another machine, you may have a valid story and info for the investigator, but give him specifics and contact info, that way he can contact them. And for hearsay on the cops story, yes, at this point it is hearsay. Give the investigator contact info so he can get their full story. You saying that they said is still hearsay until they give their own statement directly.

As for your statement about why I quit the fire service, I went into my family's business to help my dad, whose wife was dying from cancer and my dad couldn't take care of the business while he stayed with her in her last few months of life, you arrogant prick. Thanks for bringing up a very sad point in my life. And leave the sarcasm for another discussion post, this is about a very serious situation that does not need some a****** throwing out sarcasm that many may not be able to see as that. Keep in mind, written words don't always convey the intended meaning as there is no inflection or emphasis placed on words.

I have done nothing but try to help people on these forums and do the same with my customers, seeing as how I'm not just a salesman but the owner of the dealership now. My goal is to help my customers and I am sincerely interested in the outcome of this investigation, so again I say, let him do his job, give him contacts to verify your story, not just say, I knew of one once.....

 

[badseed]

Darryl once again you need to chill out name calling is not very professional especially if you own a buisness. I never brought up your mother or father and would never have known about your mother being sick until you brought it up. Therefore i dont feel sorry for you being reminded of your mother being sick. However i am sorry to hear that you lost your mother. I dont see how you can call me a p**** right after that do you think its my fault your mother passed? You need to learn to control your emotions. You are the one who deserves to be called names here. You should have been more tactful about how you talk to people on here. You shouldnt talk to people the way you do and not expect to be hit right back with a response just as powerful. Please tell me you dont sell arctic cats by calling people names. I dont feel sorry for you having any bad memories of your mother that you remembered because i posted about you being a salesman. I can only immagine it must just be hell for you to go to work everyday and be reminded of your mother and why you are there. I mean do you cry about it everyday before customers start to arrive? Did you cry as you posted back? I think you have some growing up to do darryl. You need to reach down and grab a pair and man up dude. Crying about mom worked in kindergarten when you needed to get out of a fight. IM sorry for your loss but dont bring it up trying to get me to feel sorry for you. This is the real world now and you will find that some people dont give a crap about your feelings or your mother so quit hiding behine them. It is beyond me how you have the nerve to call people out the way you do especially when you own an arctic cat franchise. But go ahead and feel sorry for yourself and try to make others feel sorry for you. I see now that there is no reasoning with you. I dont know why i even posted back to your rude and uncalled for response in the first place.

I am not going to put phone numbers to dealers on the internet for everyone to call and ask about especially you. I have had a pm from fire investigator inquiring about a phone number. I will give it to him if the my salesman doesnt care about anyone inquiring about the fire. If you wanted to know more info so bad you shouldnt have been so rude. If you ask me you should be kicked off these forums for using the language you used.

I would just love to know what dealership you own because everyone on these forums deserves to know how unprofessional and immature you really are. I dont know how Arctic Cat feels about their franchise owners being so unprofessional on a public forum but I know any major corporation will not stand for it and in some cases its a violation of their franchise agreements. Your actions could cost you your right to sell Arctic cats! Do yourself and everyone on this post a favor and calm yourself before you do something drastic Darryl. Seriously, you need to quit being such a bully. I have been sarcastic but diplomatic with you but you have just about stepped over the line. You better go and read your franchise agreement as well as the forum rules very closely before you think about keeping up your behavior. Everyone on here has been nice to deal with but you. A few gave advise or told stories about the problems they have had with their prowlers and now nobody even responds on this post. I would guess its because they are affraid you will call them out too. If you expect me to keep bickering with you forget it. i have wasted enough time with you and i am now going to ignore your rude comments. Like i said before if you cant handle my jokes dont read it. ignore it like im about to ignore you if it bothers you so much.

Have a wonderful day,
Badseed

 

[Darryl89]

Badseed,
You obviously like to fight and argue, so I'm not going to continue this discussion with you any further. Have a nice life and I hope you finally find happiness....

 

[Argyros Miha]

The fire originated at the back of the vehicle near the parking brake. The owner stated that the parking brake light would not illuminate unless the brake lever was clicked up 3 notches. Pulling the brake lever up 1 or 2 notches would not illuminate the light. Do any XTZ owners have similar issues? How many notches "clicks" do you have to pull the brake lever before the indicator light comes on?? Any help is appreciated. Thanks

 

[catnhat]

wow you guys are fired up. put on some gloves and go out back. My money is on Darryl I saw him in a pic. He is a big dude.

 

[Johnny]

UTV CRAP ARCTIC CAT PROWLER PARKING BRAKE ALARM KIT
[2080] TIRED OF DRIVING WITH YOUR PARKING BRAKE ON, WE ARE TOO? SO WE MADE A KIT TO LET YOU KNOW WHEN IT IS ON. SUPER LOUD AND ANNOYING TO MAKE SURE YOU WONT LEAVE WITH IT ON.
$34.95

This product was added to our catalog on Thursday 22 October,

 

[Johnny]

UTV CRAP ARCTIC CAT PROWLER PARKING BRAKE ALARM KIT
[2080] TIRED OF DRIVING WITH YOUR PARKING BRAKE ON, WE ARE TOO? SO WE MADE A KIT TO LET YOU KNOW WHEN IT IS ON. SUPER LOUD AND ANNOYING TO MAKE SURE YOU WONT LEAVE WITH IT ON.
$34.95

INstock

 

[ManBearPig]

I had E-Brake fire as well

Brand new to forum but wanted to respond to this topic
I had just picked up my new XTZ (1 mile on the odo) and my first trip was to Moab over this past Memorial Day and within 2 miles I had a E-Brake fire. uch: Luckily we caught in time so there was only minor damage and burned plastic. A sick feeling watching those flames come out of your new ride. I know that light was not on and would bet the house that the E-brake lever was down. But there is no doubt that the fire was caused by an engaged e-brake after it cooled down. Cat did an inspection and said it was user error based upon the charring of the cable. Not a good feeling when you feel you are in the right, but I understand their side as well. Just seems like there is a defiant issue with this. At that time, (June) Cat informed I was the first case of this fire happening. So it is surprising to see additional problems out there.
However, my dealer was great and fixed me up at a very price and got it back to me brand new. I am now just super careful when dealing with the E-brake. Tough way to learn.